Chain Lightning

[iceycool56]

I just dueled a player who said his build was a cleric/monk.  I used my mage and casted spell mantle and it appears that regular chain lightning is able to go through the mantle and do damage to me.  At least, i think it was regular chain lightning according to the opponent.

[BzK]

Domain spell.

[420]

Domain/shadow/shade spells go through spell mantle because Bioware's staff consists of newbs. Talon fixed this long ago, before a Bioware patch broke it again. Rumor has it that the 1.64 patch will fix this problem.

-420

[Talon]

Domain/shadow/shade spells go through spell mantle because Bioware's staff consists of newbs. Talon fixed this long ago, before a Bioware patch broke it again. Rumor has it that the 1.64 patch will fix this problem.

-420

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Indeed - all spells that do not have an entry for the type of caster you are using in spells.2da (subradial spells, domain spells, etc) are affected by this bug. Apparently it is fixed in the next patch. Wonder what they will break as a replacement.....

[ViperDE2004]

Domain/shadow/shade spells go through spell mantle because Bioware's staff consists of newbs. Talon fixed this long ago, before a Bioware patch broke it again. Rumor has it that the 1.64 patch will fix this problem.

-420

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Indeed - all spells that do not have an entry for the type of caster you are using in spells.2da (subradial spells, domain spells, etc) are affected by this bug. Apparently it is fixed in the next patch. Wonder what they will break as a replacement.....

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LoL, there are newbs.  But what can you do. The domain spells are buged, and plain and simple. I would recomend not dueling a cleric if he spams that domain spell.

-Viper

[gashmo]

I actually don't feel that the shadow/domain spells are "bugged".
Instead, to me they add tremendous flavour to the game beyond DnD rules.

After all, what is more interesting than to realise thta in the worl dof magic, there are devious spells which break the conventional rules of mana manipulation?

Shadow spells are weaved from the stuff of shadows, whos eproperties remain unexplored. They pierce mantle, perform strange DCs and have hidden surprise effects! This is the stuff of magic! Maybe bioware even pre-empted in their spell descriptions where the word "Special" is use din reference to the type of saves used.

Domain spells are drawn from the elements of gods, themselves made from the weft of mana. Is it not to be expected that the very spells they grant their disciplines tear open the same stuff of their creators? That is the stuff of celestial beings!

And in duelling, such spells merely make the fate of the casters more undecided, haning in the balance of fate instead of returning us to the orderly mundane existence outside nwn.

Well, anyway a lot of this is supposedly already fixed in 164. But I still prefer them to be unchanged.

[420]

Well, anyway a lot of this is supposedly already fixed in 164. But I still prefer them to be unchanged.

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All Forgotten Realm's spells come from the Weave, maintained by Mystra, except for the Shadow Weave variety created and maintained by Shar. Shadow Conjuration, Shade and Domain spells are Weave magic and not Shadow Weave, therefore Absorption or the NWN equivelent, Spell Mantle should "absorb" those spells.

-420

[gashmo]

I think 420's point is correct because it shows he knows the lore behind shadow magic.

But well, I'm a bit of a chaotic person. I don't tend to believe that we all have to follow what the DnD forgotten realms, or dragonlance mythologies and genre says. After all, DnD is ultimately about creating our own worlds. So ithe more differences we have between worlds the better.

It is like GS, although the names are drawn from myth, GS to me is a totally new world. With a bit of Talon inside and so on. It doesnt have to be lotr for me to be good.

[Raelias]

Personally I agree with gashmo. I like those spells being there but I think if they are able to go through mantles then the damage should be reduced. I think even now there damage is reduced by 1/3 or something or another. I'm not a big DnD fan or rule knower but I remember something like that mentioned in one of my argues with Mo. I liked it when you could snag a bit of extra damage with an occasional shadow cone of cold or fireball in your mage duel. But domain spells like chain lightning and icestorm that are already so hurtful should be dimmed down or not allowed to go through mantles. Personally I think shadow varients are ok. And if you want to change those I mean... what stops you from changing epic spells? Epic spells have the same bugs as those and as so they go through mantles. Now Mo and I had a nice little conversation about that long ago... and even though he though the mantle wasn't suppose to absorb epic spells... we (or should I say Mo) rooted through and came up with information that very well said that epic spells ARE suppose to be absorbed... so do what you wish =).

[Zaron]

so it should be like: mantle,dispell,mantle,dispell, no casting trough?

[420]

so it should be like: mantle,dispell,mantle,dispell, no casting trough?

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more like: mantle, breach, mantle, breach

However, if you watch a caster dueler, you will see that the mantle/breach back-and-forth is sort of like playing hot-potato or musical chairs. The opponents are trying to second guess each other. At some point, someone will try to sneak a spell in and when that happens should the opponent take that time to protect himself or go on the offensive since his opponent is now vulnerable.

Even with just the mantle/breach combo, you have to ask, should I cast a lesser, niormal or greater version. Some take longer to cast than others, and some mantles are easier to bust through.

I watch Mo duel all the time, try it and see if you can guess what people are going to do next. I recommened using a char with high spellcraft so you can see what spells are being cast. It gets complicated though between Mo and a caster that he duels a LOT, makes my head hurt.

Now, that said...

Epic Spells

GS wants to stay as close to official 3E PnP D&D rules without unbalancing duels.

According to Forgotten Realm's lore (here I go again) Mystra limited the maximum spell level after the Fall of Netheril to 10. This was because Karsus the Archmage invented a level 12 spell that could steal the powers of a diety.

"This spell, called Karsus?s avatar, was the only 12th-level spell ever created."

"This time, she [Mystra] made magic follow a few more rules, and no spell above 10th level would function."

-Arcane Age, Netheril: Empire of Magic

Now, Greater Spell Mantle (which is based of the D&D spell Absorbtion ) say that is absorbs 1d12+10 Levels of spells.

Assuming that Epic Spells are level 10 spells (in the FR setting) then Spell Mantle should absorb Epic Spells. This goes for dispel too, I'm tired of not being able to dispel my opponents buffs because he buffs with an Epic Spell first which makes it impossible to dispel any buffs cast after that.

-420

[Raelias]

Yep same conclusion me and Mo came to. It says no where in the DnD text that it shouldn't absorb epic spells but it doesn't specifically say it should even though you can guess it' suppose to. Oh and about that mage dueling, 420 has the gist of it unless you throw in a taunting sorcerer or *cough* a hiding mage maybe. Then it gets a bit different and ya the no dispel on epic buffs is lame...

[gashmo]

well for me mage duels usually go

mantle breach mantle
attack shadow spell
breach
attack normal spell
mantle
mantle
breach
attack normal spell etc

to me, the shadow spells, and even cleric domain spells add a touch of excitement at L20 because you know ur opponent has them so you have to try to work past them. Clerics have chain lightning and yes it does go through mantle, but so does a mage. And clerics do not have any mantle. So to me its even. You have to be poised to anticipate whether this cleric is a CL busting cleric.

Thats what makes mage duels exciting - unpredictability. Mantlebreachmantle gets a bit boring otherwise for me. So I say, let shadow spells and cleric spell thru.

[Raelias]

Now I'm not a big L20 guy but what happens if the cleric dude had like... 34 wisdom and the focus's and had like a DC of like what... 34 or something... was that math right? Isn't 34 really high for L20 and if you can just pound them through mantles doing like oober good damage kind of unfair =/. Though I agree they do add more flavor.

[Blood Angel]

domain spells vs shadow spells is unfair.... should just spam ice storm through mantle that's so evil >.<

[Raelias]

Shadow spells do less damage than the normal spells which makes the whole going through mantle a bit more balanced. But like domain spells... going through is stupid cause there is no penalty to them. Icestorm is already probably one of the bugged spells of a mages inventory if there ever was one. It's the only spell that does not have a damage cap (I think) and it is LEVEL 5! I mean for crying outloud. Plus the thing deals wicked damage. And to have that thing goes through mantles... Urgh.

[Blood Angel]

yup, and there's the dilemma, does the cleric get ice storm or not from domain, cuz if they take it they might hit through mantle, and that's not nice. If not, then they're passing out a great spell

[Raelias]

I think you should just apply the rules Mel stated early and trim the damage on it. Maybe just make it actually have a damage cap. And just do that to the domain version only.
*grumbles* Though I wouldn't mind them putting a damage cap on the normal one... Hate having to get like 70/- cold resist.

[Blood Angel]

hehe, there are rules, the real dnd rules and you can't go changing the fat that shadow and domain spells aren't supposed to go through mantle

[Raelias]

I think that topic went completely over your heard Blood. The whole point people are bitching about it is because they are NOT suppose to go through LoL. Geez man you seriously need to read the topics more closely before you post O.o.

[Blood Angel]

I'm stating facts, it's not supposed to go through mantle and that's the way it is, therefore I don't think that ppl should use them to dmg ppl trhough mantle

[420]

Well, the point is moot, 1.64 fixed domain/shadow/shade spells. Mantle now absorbs them.

The real question is, should Epic Spells be absorbed by mantle and affected by dispel.

As I pointed out, there are no spells above level 10 in the Forgotten Realms. So Epic Spells must be level 10 (in FR) and therefor subject to spell absorbtion and dispel.

-420

[gashmo]

epic spells thru mantle - being the chaotic guy i am i say yes let em all thru!!!

oh i really liked fighting thoe ice storm cl spamming clerics cos once they started it was a desperate fight to throw them off their casting. Thats the great thing with mages! we get sooo many other spells to stop the enemy! We culd :-

(anything with a fort save nets quite a few clerics)
Blind them
Level drain them
spam them with quickend ice storm ourselves - i dont think clerics get quickened ice storm
darkness them
(and for xp users)
gust them
bigby them
flesh to stone them
tashas laughter them

ooo what fun!! then its the dice rolls of damage vs thedc save rolls! to me, its all what DnD was about - you will probably disable the clerci with 10% of ur hp remaining - but what a victory!!

but if you have spell mantle for everything then evrything goes mantlebreach routine.

[420]

ooo what fun!! then its the dice rolls of damage vs thedc save rolls! to me, its all what DnD was about - you will probably disable the clerci with 10% of ur hp remaining - but what a victory!!

This may have been the case before 1.64, but now a 1 is no longer an auto-fail for saving throws. My clerics saving throws are high enough that a pure caster still has very little chance of affecting him with those spells you listed.

-420

[Blood Angel]

the dc's never had a chance following up on the saves in hou. it's all out of range, cept those feat like dc's..... dev crit and stunning fist