What's your idea of a cheap build?

[Soul Sojourner]

Ok, there are many, many good builds out there, and many to be discovered. Some though, can be, or seem to be, cheap builds. Using cheap tricks, and such, to win a duel. The question is what is a cheap build, and why, in your opinion.  ( Hiders, those who use darkness, sneak attacks, and death attacks, etc. Can all be considered cheap, that does'nt mean they are, or that I think they are, but it's just an opinion, just don't start flaming eachother about it! ) Discuss. =P

[Mercy]

I used to think hiders were a cheap build, but not anymore. All though a WoF/harm spamming hider is cheap...as is a hellball/wof hider. The ultimate lame char IMO is a wof/harm or wof/hellball/harm char....that is pretty much it on the lame chart. Even though I do use chars with those feats. All in all, its not lame at all. You are just using feats and spells that are a part of the game, if you are good they shouldnt hinder your playing. I do complain about them, but who cares its just a game give credit where credit is due.

[CleTus]

I tend not to find anything lame actually.. "Lame" things are more fun in my opinion because it makes you think on how to actually beat them.

[Celestial1]

I lean for "annoying" and not "lame."

Hiders are "annoying." WoFers are "annoying." HellBall is "annoying." Harm is "annoying." But that all together and you've got an "annoyance" on your hands.



~Celestial

[Tea-cup]

I think you can play lame and cheap. The build not really can help if the player behind the computer is doing lame in a duel. Like woffing 35 times, or horning evry 6 seconds. Hellball is fair most of the time, it's one shot and takes quite some levels to get it. In my eyes is epicwarding isn't less lame than hellball when you duel a char equiped with GodSpire arrows for example.

Just, a duel should be a friendly fight, not the slaughter or anihilation of the other.

-Mel

[Angle]

a lame char for me would be a hider/wof/harm/hellball.

[Soul Sojourner]

And then of course, one cannot forget the all famous ED. Yes, the Epic Dodge. Is ED cheap in general? Or is it only cheap when using WoF, or hide, hellball, or all with it? In My opinion, it is'nt the most respectable thing to put into, but if you use other thinks like sneak attacks, hide, darkness, wof, and such with it. Then I consider it "cheap" or "annoying."

[kristie dian]

ED is cheap well its bugged thats why its cheap and thats why dm put a big flag on ppl who take that feat

[ViperDE2004]

Hiders are not cheap. There a class like any other.  wofing an archer is lame, because its basicaly taking away there shot. But at this lvl, you should be able to fit a dispel on your char.  Hell ball is not cheap at all. In fact i think its an awsome feat.  The only thing lame is like mel said wofing 35 times and horn.  A person blinding someone else means hes a cowardwho is to afraid to fight them in plain sight.

-Viper

P.S. All of you people who think hiders are lame, get some damn spot. Not that hard to get.

[Blood Angel]

wofing 35 times isn't lame... it's a spell made for the game...
gez

now the thing about getting spot means you'll want high wisdom with that too, and it's not too easy spending ability points on that when you've got so much else to get. With cleric it's easy enough, but it's not like everyone is a cleric -.-

[Celestial1]

HellBall is just a little overpowered; It gives around 50+ damage, and KDs your character, great.

WoF is way overpowered. It takes away most of your Dexterity, so there goes hiders, archers, and dex based melee builds, plus it makes it harder to see and makes you flat footed once it takes effect, stopping combat. Archers getting dispell? Psh, there goes TS and one round of attacks.

All of you people who think hiders are lame, get some damn spot. Not that hard to get.

[snapback]17887[/snapback]

Oh, okay. Oh wait, I already have 102 maximum spot on my elf archer. Oh dang, I just got killed by Delly because I'm not a wisdom archer with 130 spot.
>.>

~Celestial

[Tea-cup]

wofing 35 times isn't lame... it's a spell made for the game...
gez

[snapback]17891[/snapback]

Probably never did fight a woffer that was strong enough. Woffing that much makes you run out of remove blindness, means that if you get woffed you have to use dispel, witch means you will dispel your own buffs and in case silenced you might as well run out of useable dispels. Also makes you very vurnable to harm then. And btw, I'm talking of doing that with a 93 ac, 63 ab, +120 hide, 127 spot, 50 conseal, 37 caster. With a load of maxed bladebariers/sov's/dispels/spellresistance/maxed searing light. Damage around 70-300. (crits a lot in case it hides and/or wofs)  370 dam with harm, 60-120 with blades (has a good dc because it's wisdom, seems to be enough to beat some chars their reflex) It also doesn't need much buffs. For most opponents it even doesn't has to buff. And on top of it, that build is easy to make. Most poeple know what kind of build I mean.

In case that fights a hider for example, it's extremly lame to do 1 single wof, as you can kill hider without taking a real hit anyway. I would find casting a 4 sov's/12blades/1wof/few harms/hellball just too lame againt most builds anyway.

Wof is one of the spells you better use in a second fight in case you lost of your opponent, lets stand spamming it in a first. Also I'm not saying that I see it as forbidden to do it, it's just not nice. And builds that need wof to be able to hurt a other aren't exacly good.

Wof is a spell of the game, and fair in some cases. But absolutly not all.

note: I can reach about 115 spot + elf with any buildtype, spots most hiders. Hide is just like with wof, fair, but not in all cases. Hellball seems fine to me for it's req and it's 1 single shot. + damage the caster too. In fact you can get around the kd, or the damage, but most don't have the time or spell to cast a protecion for it, neither does the opponent.

-Mel

[Blood Angel]

mel plz, irony.

[Celestial1]

WoF is hard enough to deal with just one of them.

Dex: gone
Dodge: gone (I think?)
Attacking: low hits, especially for dex builds
Living: low chance


WoF Is just too overpowered. Especially on archers; the opponent could be a caster farther away, and if they cast WoF, then harm, then a damage spell such as HellBall (or less), it's over.

Get my point? I believe WoF should be changed, just because it's not suitable in most PvP settings.

~Celestila

[Morticia]

P.S. All of you people who think hiders are lame, get some damn spot. Not that hard to get.

[snapback]17887[/snapback]

All of u people who think wofers are lame, get some damn restore sight. Not that hard to get.

In my eyes everything thats allowed isnt lame. U can say someone who wofs other mass times are lame. But doesnt that make spell mantle lame? Espec vs clerics.
If one wofs/hides/harms etc. me i still say gf, even if i didnt get a chance to hit them once. They d won fairly in my eyes. If u call those tings lame u might as well call ts lame, but it isnt cuz ts is generalized.

ps: never occured to u that all people find same things lame? That means they dont find it lame but someone told them it was lame.

Last thing: thing thats *lamest* in my eyes is EB , cant dispell it and realy puts u in advantage.

[Morticia]

Probably never did fight a woffer that was strong enough. Woffing that much makes you run out of remove blindness, means that if you get woffed you have to use dispel, witch means you will dispel your own buffs and in case silenced you might as well run out of useable dispels. Also makes you very vurnable to harm then. And btw, I'm talking of doing that with a 93 ac, 63 ab, +120 hide, 127 spot, 50 conseal, 37 caster. With a load of maxed bladebariers/sov's/dispels/spellresistance/maxed searing light. Damage around 70-300. (crits a lot in case it hides and/or wofs)  370 dam with harm, 60-120 with blades (has a good dc because it's wisdom, seems to be enough to beat some chars their reflex) It also doesn't need much buffs. For most opponents it even doesn't has to buff. And on top of it, that build is easy to make. Most poeple know what kind of build I mean.


-Mel

[snapback]17917[/snapback]

Thats in my eyes good build. But as always ,tehre would be other builds that can kill it.

[Talon]

All of u people who think wofers are lame, get some damn restore sight. Not that hard to get.

[snapback]17956[/snapback]

Or even a lesser dispel.
All you people who are part caster (e.g. use truestrike) I have absolutely no sympathy for. If you can get caster levels for offfensive spells, then you can get them for defensive too.

[iceycool56]

Or even a lesser dispel.
All you people who are part caster (e.g. use truestrike) I have absolutely no sympathy for. If you can get caster levels for offfensive spells, then you can get them for defensive too.

[snapback]17963[/snapback]

All the talk about Word of Faith has got me thinking about Bigby's Interposing Hand.  It was explained a few months back, but I forgot so please explain again why it was banned.  It gives -10 ab to the target.  No AC is loss.  Word of Faith blinds the opponent giving them -4 ab and loss of AC.  Now if you use Lesser Dispel to rid yourself of blindness, the same can be done to get rid of Interposing Hand.

[Blood Angel]

I so love my hand, got it quickslotted on every mage of mine

[Tea-cup]

All the talk about Word of Faith has got me thinking about Bigby's Interposing Hand.  It was explained a few months back, but I forgot so please explain again why it was banned.  It gives -10 ab to the target.  No AC is loss.  Word of Faith blinds the opponent giving them -4 ab and loss of AC.  Now if you use Lesser Dispel to rid yourself of blindness, the same can be done to get rid of Interposing Hand.

[snapback]17979[/snapback]

Mages are already very hard to hit, it's the strongest class. I'm pretty sure it's to balance things a bit out. And I know there were a few nice builds with it, like some aa's that lower the opponents their ab by it. But for mages it's too strong (same as wit forcefull hand)

And wof is 100% fair against mages or other clerics, just not against a pally, bard and like builds.

Anyway, this is a "never ending story", just play the game and hope you meet some fair poeple to duel.

-Mel

[Blood Angel]

mages have around the lowest ac there is. They can  get awesome ac when using pm, but it would still be out of reach with or without the interposing hand, so that's what we call overkill if they get high ac and use interposing, but ppl do that with WoF too if ppl can't get rid of it.... I want my hand back

[iceycool56]

Mages are already very hard to hit, it's the strongest class. I'm pretty sure it's to balance things a bit out. And I know there were a few nice builds with it, like some aa's that lower the opponents their ab by it. But for mages it's too strong (same as wit forcefull hand)

And wof is 100% fair against mages or other clerics, just not against a pally, bard and like builds.

Anyway, this is a "never ending story", just play the game and hope you meet some fair poeple to duel.

-Mel

[snapback]17986[/snapback]

I wasn't sure if you were referring to another post, but I never said WoF wasn't fair against other mages or clerics.  A simple "Remove Blindess" will fix the problem.

Mages are hard to hit?  I'd like to disagree unless it's an RDD or PM or RDD/PM mage.  My 38 wiz has 81 AC after items and 86 AC after epic mage armor.  To me, 86 isn't all that hard to hit.

[Tea-cup]

I wasn't sure if you were referring to another post, but I never said WoF wasn't fair against other mages or clerics.  A simple "Remove Blindess" will fix the problem.

Mages are hard to hit?  I'd like to disagree unless it's an RDD or PM or RDD/PM mage.  My 38 wiz has 81 AC after items and 86 AC after epic mage armor.  To me, 86 isn't all that hard to hit.

[snapback]18000[/snapback]

Well, I wasn't very specific targetting someone with my post

And "mages are hard to hit", maybe it's more clear if I say, "you don't hit them enough". If I make a high mage it deal so much damage that the other doesn't has the time to kill me. You don't take much damage as mage either, epic warding, energy buffer, shadowshield. Also, it's spells like neg-energy/horn are quite good at that level. ( -9 str) If you would take a -10 ab for the other on top of that. You get 100 ac like if you use stilled spells, and with decent hp, you can use conseal too. Quite fun if they miss you all the time and you only take 0-30 damage if they hit, try getting off 700 hp then. Anyway, I remeber I had restorations ready only for that hand when it wasn't banned.

I don't think mages are too weak without interposing hand, they are still the strongest builds.

-Mel

[Blood Angel]

Mo kept using it on my little cleric monk sd, but ye with restoration or a simple dispell how is it that bad

[Tea-cup]

Mo kept using it on my little cleric monk sd, but ye with restoration or a simple dispell how is it that bad

[snapback]18055[/snapback]

Dispeling your buffs first to get that hand off isn't exactly good. Also, what if you're not cleric or a caster? And still want to try a fight against a mage.

-Mel

[BzK]

then you should remove the damage shields too, a melee char fighting a mage is pretty pointless when they do more damage than you

[iceycool56]

Dispeling your buffs first to get that hand off isn't exactly good. Also, what if you're not cleric or a caster? And still want to try a fight against a mage.

-Mel

[snapback]18056[/snapback]

1) You're right, dispelling your buffs first to get that hand off isn't good, but how is that any different from an AA or WM dispelling his/her TS first to remove blindness from a WoF?
2) If you're not a cleric or a caster, then oh well, there's nothing you can do unless you still have room for caster levels.  Most builds nowadays have some caster class unless you're a hider or monk.

P.S. If we want to continue this discussion (which I'd like cuz I don't participate in enough), let's move this to a different topic unless we want to start calling mages cheap   .

[Soul Sojourner]

When it comes to mages, the only thing I think of as really cheap is a mage who uses Acid Shield and Elemental Shield vs. a melee oppenent. Especially if the mage has high hp.

[Morticia]

nothing cheap about it in my eyes. Just something ur build didnt foresee then.
If all people start calling those things that they cant dispel cheap well...
acid cheat can easily be blow away with dispel or ranged.

[Blood Angel]

yeah, and interposing hand isn't cheap, it's cool and super and I love it.