Global Annoucement

[Lord_Aiden]

And asking "why the hell would you want that?" is expressing what I mean about "pure" leveled characters. You expect them to be boring yet of those out there of the best of the best has taken the time to make strong "pure" characters.

That's true to an extent.  I saw a level 40 fighter that was holding his own as an archer with the AAs on Godspire a month or so ago.

My point is a "pure" character is the default.  Level 40, one class, is what the game defaults to in leveling.. there are some decent pure builds though.

However, if you can make a character clicking recommended the whole way through that will beat any of my characters I would be very surprised.  The "weapons they have available" is meaningless.. because "recommended" fighter levels will always weapon spec in longsword... which is a shitty PvP weapon.

The truly skilled players are coming up with builds and ideas no one's thought to bring into the pvp arena yet.  I've seen a *lot* of pure builds.. and most of them have major weaknesses.

The skill in building a pvp character is using multiple classes to complement and cover the weakness of another class.

Take again the wizard/barbarian combo I mentioned before.  18 Wizard gives access to all the spells, however when a wizard is casting they are considered flatfooted, so vulnerable to melee/ranged attack.  2 Barbarian levels gives uncanny dodge which covers that weakness.

This example is an obvious one, and very popular.  There are a lot of combinations out there that aren't considered however, because many classes have abilities that are quite secondary to thier primary ones... yet these abilities really shine through when combined with another class.

Your build is as much the specific strengths you accentuate as it is the classes and levels you combine.  With so many options, I revert to my original point, unique builds are *very* possible.

[AngelsWings]

Damn Bioware....
Someone can say me what are the CEP prestige class? im curious....

i have a slow connection so i cant download 70-80 MB for the CEP    

Thx

[nathan]

I could put it on this site if you like. Talon, would it be faster to download it from here, or there sever.

[AngelsWings]

Is possible divide it in part of 10 MB or something to help who has a slow connection like me?  

ps: the CEP is 120 MB !!!!!!       no 80

[Boo]

Firsty, these are all legitimate tactics - it is just mos decision not to duel people who use them (which i disagree with).


1) Word of Faith  
i)can be removed by something as simple as a lesser dispel. People are only to happy to get a few caster levels for their "truestrike" and what-not, so why cant they get a few more and use dispel.
ii) Only really screws up those with a lot of dex ac. So your fault. I have a wisdom based character with uncanny dodge and blind fighting, and i can take a WoFing and survive.

2) Hiders (hiding more than 1 time every 6 seconds is CHEATING)
i) High spot counters hiders hide skill. Its nearly impossible for hiders to hide against me. For others I just cast either a Word of Faith on them, or simply cast improved invisibility/displacement on myself, and then laugh as they fail to hit me. It appears that the only people who winge about hiders are those who dont even add spot to their items - I have no sympathy for them.
ii) Hiders (dex whores as they are) usually have a crazy low str. A simple "iron horn", or usually even a successful "improved knockdown" (they all seem to be halflings for some reason) will usually leave them way open to your assault.

3) Hellball
i) One of the main useful features of hellball IS the knockdown effect. It will ONLY knock you down if you take more than 50hp of damage - so you can either take a few energy resist feats to counter it - or simply cast some kind of energy resist - and hey presto - no more knockdown. I wont expect to be seeing anyone who complains about it using this spell themselves, obviously

4) Storm of Vengeance
i) Takes time to cast - its not a free action.
ii) Is just the same as any other AoE
iii) Certain Builds are immune to stun - as are casters who cast certain spells
iv) Gets COMPLETELY dispelled by any high level casters dispel, or in fact a low level caster with "gust of wind".
v) Can be walked out of
vi) Is autofail on a 1 which will be removed in the next patch
vii) Does not lag the server - but does lag some peoples graphics cards - so be considerate as to how many times you cast it. In all honesty, its suicide casting it more than a couple of times anyway - not to mention pointless against anyone who is either ranged/part-caster. And as Mo said - you will suck when autofail is removed with the next patch.

I just love when you explain things the way i can understand them

[thanatos]

Only real thing I can't stand is stealing someone's build.  If you can't use your own mind to come up with something unique on your own, don't pvp.  Sure there are a lot of mroe obvious builds taht are popular, but when you notice someone's kickin ass out there, don't try to rip off what they've come up with.. that's just really lame.

Can't agree with that more.

I mean...if you're going to rip off someone's idea, at least give the original creator credit...maybe mention them in your character description.

That's the main reason I become uber-angry when someone with the EXACT class levels appears before me, and starts to ask alll sorts of annoying questions like..."So how much taunt do you add?" or "What spells do you use?" etc.

Be original! That's how you make a name for yourself...be creating something unique.

Umm, hi guys.

I just joined this forum, and I can't help but reply to the issue of ripping people's builds.  I agree with Lord Aiden that you can make unique builds; but whining about people making too similar of builds is just ludricrous.

Mathematically speaking, it's pretty much impossible for one person to have the same build as others.  But there comes a point where a lot of tactics become standard, so to speak.  For example I made a caster with time stop, Bigby's Forceful Hand, IGMS (basically all the forbidden spells).  Of course at that time I'm a total n00b to GodSpire and I didn't know.  So I redid my character, and what do you know, many of the spells I chose are used by numerous other casters.  

2nd thing:  Oh no, my classes are the exact same and have the same exact amount of levels as the others!  It may seem that I'm ripping someone else's builds, but really I knew these classes would complement each other and I had NO idea that someone else would have the same classes taken in the same order taken in the same amount.

I also noticed that somebody eariler made a list that if more than 4 of the following apply to you then you're probably ripping off a character.  I agree, but how in the heck is somebody going to do that?  How are you gonna copy exact stats/skills?

Anyway, I'm probably just rambling, but this uniqueness of characters can only go so far.  Eventually there are 'standards' you must meet in the world of PVPing.

[nathan]

Only real thing I can't stand is stealing someone's build.  If you can't use your own mind to come up with something unique on your own, don't pvp.  Sure there are a lot of mroe obvious builds taht are popular, but when you notice someone's kickin ass out there, don't try to rip off what they've come up with.. that's just really lame.

Can't agree with that more.

I mean...if you're going to rip off someone's idea, at least give the original creator credit...maybe mention them in your character description.

That's the main reason I become uber-angry when someone with the EXACT class levels appears before me, and starts to ask alll sorts of annoying questions like..."So how much taunt do you add?" or "What spells do you use?" etc.

Be original! That's how you make a name for yourself...be creating something unique.

Umm, hi guys.



Mathematically speaking, it's pretty much impossible for one person to have the same build as others.  

 

Nope, there was a time in godspire where a bunch of people were using rashmans caster build, some were better than others. Also, I think it's a good way to learn how to make good chars. It's like a training char thingie    

[thanatos]

Well I mean like if people just saw the classes other players have (from the player list where you select your character) and copied it most likely it won't be the exact same.

Rashman's build?  What's it like ?

[Elessar Telrunya]

so you know i havent read this whole topic cuz i got bored hehe but i got the main idea. Lance said it earlier and he is right; no build can beat *everyone*. i mean one build could beat alot of people but still lose to other. Two examples are nem's mage and mel's halfling

nem is hard to beat(and i rarely see him lose) because he is very well practiced with his mage.

mel is hard to beat(i also rarely see her lose too) because she has so many different strategies she could use; ive only beat her once but that was just one way she dueled.

quite frankly i think most people who use any strategies like hiding and wofing etc. will abstain from using them in a duel vs you if you ask them to, that is, unless they are too cowardly or cant win without those strategies.


Lord Elessar

[Hydros]

Not to be rude or anything... But all you need to beat Nem is a pure SR monk... With 2 barbarian levels, or perhaps 3 rouge (Spot) ... Anyway, that build *Could* have a good chance in pvp... So, if anyone want to beat Nem, they can =P ... But it is a lame tactic =D ... Anyway...  Nemesis skills in mage battle is great... So dont take it as I am insulting him... Cause he owned me yesterday, heheh (I've been out of mage dueling for 2 weeks or more... Well, cya guys ^^

[thanatos]

Not to be rude or anything... But all you need to beat Nem is a pure SR monk... With 2 barbarian levels, or perhaps 3 rouge (Spot) ... Anyway, that build *Could* have a good chance in pvp... So, if anyone want to beat Nem, they can =P ... But it is a lame tactic =D ... Anyway...  Nemesis skills in mage battle is great... So dont take it as I am insulting him... Cause he owned me yesterday, heheh (I've been out of mage dueling for 2 weeks or more... Well, cya guys ^^

As Lance said, every build has a weakness .  Admittedly though, mages are quite overpowered.  Look guys here's a basic list of strengths and weaknesses (and I'm not taking into account multiclassing) [i could be wrong, feel free to elaborate on this list]

Mage
Strong against:  almost all classes
Weak against:  pure SR monks, really good archers

Cleric (any)
Strong against:  Fighters, Archers
Weak against:  Purer clerics, mages, possibly really good weapon masters

Fighter (Weapon Master)
Strong against: any lower AC build
Weak aagainst: any high AC build , Mages

Hider
Strong against:  any build with bad Spot and Listen
Weak against: any build with high Spot and Listen, possibly Clerics and Mages

Builds with palemaster
Strong against: Dexterity based fighters, possibly archers
Weak against: Purer variants of their primary class

Monk
Strong against: Mages
Weak against: not very sure about this one, possibly archers, high AC builds (since they then need to rely on 20s to kill them)

Archer
Strong against: All builds with 'average' GS AC (70ish-80ish)
Weak against:  Clerics (WoF spamming ones though or if you don't have remove blindness/dispel)

Well that's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to comment.  Note that there are exceptions to these statistics!

[420]

Monk
Strong against: Mages
Weak against: not very sure about this one, possibly archers, high AC builds (since they then need to rely on 20s to kill them)

Monks are strong versus archers for two reasons. First, they have high AC which you point out, archers are not strong against. Second, Deflect Arrow.

Also, it is hard to get an AC low enough on GodSpire that a monk would hit on anything but a 20. Pretty much, if you go mostly monk, you'll only hit on 20s anyway.

Monks are only weak against other monks and even then it is still just a 20's contest.

420

[Talon]

Im inclined to agree that mages are overpowered.
For the first time ever I have actually been able to make an arcane caster. Previous attempts would crash my old computer whenever I cast mantle, so this is my very first since the launch of NWN.
It is (at least at level 40) a no brainer to make a mage that will kill nearly anything. So much so in fact, I would say the only skill in using an arcane caster (excluding bards and low level caster builds) is dueling other arcane casters.
That is my first impression of an arcane caster from the point of view of the one actually controlling it.

I will shortly make a level 20 arcane caster to see if it is also the case.

Feel free to flame/comment on my (until now uneducated) opinion.
Further ideas to balance these overpowered builds would be most welcome.

[420]

Further ideas to balance these overpowered builds would be most welcome.

Well, the problem is, while Bioware tried to keep the powerlevels of different classes balanced, NWN is by no means a balanced PvP game and wasn't intended to be. In the end it is ultimately a D&D game and particularly in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting archane spell casters are the most powerful beings on Toril.

Short List:
Elminster
Halaster
The Simbul
Manshoon
Szass Tam
Khelben Arunsun
Sememmon

Basically all the most powerful NPCs in the Forgotten Realms are archane spell casters.

Having said all that, the only real problem Joe Fixit has with mages is what I believe to be a bug with Holy Avenger.

If a wizard casts Epic Mage Armor or Epic Warding first (which can't be dispelled) then casts other buffs, the other buffs can never be dispelled by Holy Avenger while the epic buffs are in effect.

More and more wizards are using this tactic, and they all like to pick on Joe Fixit.

-420

[Elessar Telrunya]

poor boi, joe fixit


well anyway i agree with the comments above, mages are overpowered, but i think it's only because of the sheer force behind the spells that they cast. I mean think about it; most of their spells do about 70ish-90ish dammage when somone is affected by them. Also I agree with talon: the most challenging player a mage will ever face is another mage.

420-
nice job noticing that bug; I think sents should use there new daze on anyone they see abusing this bug, and then tell them about the bug incase they dont know about it; if they continue to do it i'd recomend a nice long stoning. thats just my oppinion tho, sents should take care of that however suits them, but i think that sents should deffinitely punnish people for it


Lord Elessar

[EL CABAZONO]

Elessar, How can you tell if someone is "abusing" the order in which they cast their spells?   You can't say it is because they always cast those first, due to the fact that most people cast their buffs in one order, no matter what.



I personally think most casters are overpowered against non caster classes, except druid.  I only say that because I love druids.

[Blood Angel]

I think mages are the best because as soon as they know the other persons tactics they have a great shot at killing the opponent, I tho have to say that I don't like the cleric class  

just enough lvls for hellball + some awesome buffs + can go easily with monk and then sd.... I hate that, I know I've made one, but still....grrr

[Hydros]

lol, there is one thing I have to tell you about... I dont wanna talk shit about the person, so he is Mr. Anonyme (Mr A... lol)


I did this char with a crossbow, yea... Even with the feat rapid reload it was fewer, I guess the feat aint working out right. Anyway... Mr A got fascinated that I actually used a crossbow! And I like... Why not? Not very usual ^^ ... And he started to ask these questions... And said he would turn the cleric lvls to sorc. Although (Great Wisdom, no mroe use for wisdom at all. = sucky ac, but I... well why not) ... After asking tons of questions. He comes back, with a light crossbow (I used heavy) ... Cleric lvls, everything! I asked Mr A... And he like : You know I suck, so why not?,,, He sucked at the tactics of the build though... lol, he were dead in like 10 seconds... (My time to buff and then attack, hb... attack, LOL )

Just had to write it down  

[420]

I personally think most casters are overpowered against non caster classes, except druid.  I only say that because I love druids.

I remember posting a rant before about how D&D druids ALWAYS get ripped off in computer games. I mean are they really that weak in D&D PnP?

Both Throbble and I have tried playing druids in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights. The only druid I ever played that wasn't a complete liability on my party was a Greater Werewolf shifter PC that joined my party in BG2. (Which means Bioware knew druids needed some extra help even before making NWN) He made a damn good melee fighter but couldn't cast spells.

Well, can someone look up the basic druid spells in the D&D 3E rulebooks? Maybe Bioware just overlooked all the good ones...

-420

[Lord_Aiden]

Well.. a few things here..

Druids are always gonna be kinda weak played pure caster.. in one on one pvp at least... a druid's strength seems to be based around Massive AE damage.  Seems in TvT they'd be nice to have.

There are plenty of ways to beat mages without another mage or a SR monk.  I have 2 characters that frequently beat mages and neither are SR monks or mages.. I have one character that's beat every mage I've fought with him except Mo's Palemaster (damn crit immunity).

Eh, I wanted to say a lot more.. but I've kinda lost interest.. happens when I've been drinking.

[EL CABAZONO]

My druid (Tetris = Devil) is able to hold out against a mage for a little bit, but I almost never win against them, unless they're new with mages.

My druid almost never loses to non-casting builds.

[Anarki]

Mage battles require the most..."real-time skill" of any of the classes availible.

When two fighters go at it, it's basically a duel of items/character development...I mean you NEVER see two fighters going for called shots, or attempting to disarm -- so basically, as a fighter, you just sit there and watch your rolls....or cast Truestrike every 9 seconds and watch your rolls.

Now as a mage, it's a *real-time* battle, you've gotta watch your opponents and time your attacks, as a result, a mages hands are the most active while dueling.

Now...as for mages being overpowered...I can honestly say, that while I was playing Neverwinter Nights (playing on a regular basis) I rarely lost...I mean you can check the records n' everything, I rarely lost. I usually don't lose when fighting mages, mainly b/c I use cut-throat tactics, like casting silence, using auto quickened spells, summoning, and taunting. The only person who beat me occasionally was Mo...when he used his pure caster, not his palemaster-caster.

As for me, I've used one charcter to duel everyone, I don't swap characters..I can honestly say the only classes that really give me a hard time are hiders. That's it, hiders.

...so, yeah I guess they're overpowered

PS sorry for typing so much, havent posted in a while...looking to make a come back

[EL CABAZONO]

Mage battles require the most..."real-time skill" of any of the classes availible.

When two fighters go at it, it's basically a duel of items/character development...I mean you NEVER see two fighters going for called shots, or attempting to disarm -- so basically, as a fighter, you just sit there and watch your rolls....or cast Truestrike every 9 seconds and watch your rolls.

Now as a mage, it's a *real-time* battle, you've gotta watch your opponents and time your attacks, as a result, a mages hands are the most active while dueling.

Now...as for mages being overpowered...I can honestly say, that while I was playing Neverwinter Nights (playing on a regular basis) I rarely lost...I mean you can check the records n' everything, I rarely lost. I usually don't lose when fighting mages, mainly b/c I use cut-throat tactics, like casting silence, using auto quickened spells, summoning, and taunting. The only person who beat me occasionally was Mo...when he used his pure caster, not his palemaster-caster.

As for me, I've used one charcter to duel everyone, I don't swap characters..I can honestly say the only classes that really give me a hard time are hiders. That's it, hiders.

...so, yeah I guess they're overpowered

PS sorry for typing so much, havent posted in a while...looking to make a come back

Well... erm... My fighter... I cast TS once and then spam ki damage.  If they're not dead, I repeat - if they're not dead after that, I repeat.  Then I just sit there waiting for the rolls to happen, or just stand around flatfooted cause I get bored with fights that last more than 27 seconds.

[Anarki]

That's really unfortunate, Cabby. Sounds like you've caught a bad case of sarcasm...(...)...(...)and I hear it's contagious.

Thankfully, I've had my shots already this month.

[EL CABAZONO]

No, actually I wasn't being sarcastic - that's what I do.

[thanatos]

I will shortly make a level 20 arcane caster to see if it is also the case.

I've done that already, and maybe I just suck, but level 20 mages are probably going to have a very hard time with pure fighters because we do not have epic warding and fighters at level 20 are capable of doing over 100 damage which will screw up our concentration skills.  I'd say in lvl 20 dueling clerics are the overpowered class.

[bus driver]

I will shortly make a level 20 arcane caster to see if it is also the case.

I've done that already, and maybe I just suck, but level 20 mages are probably going to have a very hard time with pure fighters because we do not have epic warding and fighters at level 20 are capable of doing over 100 damage which will screw up our concentration skills.  I'd say in lvl 20 dueling clerics are the overpowered class.

i cant even get my brute of a melee to do over 100 melee dmg so how in hell is a level 20 gonno do more dmg

[thanatos]

I dueled a fighter named Lokasenna and she did over 100 damage of criticals.  I don't know how but it's crazy.

[AngelsWings]

Maybe she was a weapon master......her critical is x3 or more and a ki damage critical does over 100....
Maybe she is also str based so she add the str bonus on dmg
Im not sure about it because she is 20 but a lvl 40 WM does 206 ki damage criticals

[EL CABAZONO]

If it's STR based they do a bit more than 206 at level 40.