So...Kerry or Bush?

[Anheg]

BOB BARKER FOR PRESIDENT  

[Ludo]

Well, if you learned about McCarthyism in school it's basically the same thing.

At this point they are using the Patriot Act to label any criminal a "terrorist" so the criminal is no longer protected by the Constitution of the United States.

However, if the trend continues, it could get to the point that when you speak out against George Bush, you get arrested, labeled a "terrorist" or even an "Enemy of Freedom" and you get tossed into Guantanamo indefenitly with no trial.

-420

That would never happen.. as long as you don't infringe on his rights you can talk all the shit you want about him..

Plus... the Patriot Act has like 400 sections to in which 1 of these may label a crimminal a terrorist depending on the offense... besides the pros from it outweigh the cons.. if you actualy take the time read the entire thing, it really steps up on security in America.

One more thing.. for people that don't like Bush.. please explain why.. unless you all just listen to the media.. or maybe you can actualy back up your thoughts with hard facts?  I am ready for a debate...  

But if I am flamed and called names.. that only reinforces my statements.

[Throbblefoot]

for people that don't like Bush.. please explain why.. unless you all just listen to the media..

You start out like this, and expect it not to turn into a flame war? That, to coin a phrase, is ludicrous.

I don't have enough time to list all my objections, so I'll limit myself to these two:
1. He encouraged government employees to twist the facts to support the war in Iraq instead of building consensus in the international community. The USA's reputation has been seriously damaged by this, which hurts us economically as well.
2. He's completely inarticulate. How can a person lead a country without an excellent command of its official language.

-Throbblefoot

[Mercy]

You want to know my thoughts? Fine, here goes. Bush is a warmongering pig. He is an idiot who does not know the English language and is only in President because he knows people. I mean come the hell on, his campaign manager was the head of the recount, which was held in his brothers state. Cmon, that is so blatantly obvious, if you are a Bush supporter (which im guessing you are) you are an idiot, Im sorry, but thats just stupid. The whole Iraqi was is for nothing, only to continue his daddy's war. They were not holding or hiding any terrorists from 9/11 and! the only thing it did do, was kill innocent americans who wanted to fight for their country and further the deepness of Bush's pocket. Im not a political person, I dont follow it with a toothpick, but Im not so dullwitted that I cant see this. You have your own opinions yes, but I do not agree with them and as a matter of fact think that they are coming from an imbocil that is just trying to stir up things. Also, the Patriot Act is sooo rediculous that a kid who defaces a webpage, as a gag or anything, can go to jail for life, and now the updated Miranda Rights is even worse. So you do not have to be read your rights before being arrested. And to back that up, my mom is a District Attourney in NC, I know what I am talking about. So please let me hear your rebuttle.

[BzK]

2. He's completely inarticulate. How can a person lead a country without an excellent command of its official language.

How can a person lead a country when he can't even make a decision and stick to it? At least Bush sticks to his guns. =P

The whole Iraqi was is for nothing, only to continue his daddy's war. They were not holding or hiding any terrorists from 9/11 and! the only thing it did do, was kill innocent americans who wanted to fight for their country and further the deepness of Bush's pocket.

Ok then explain why they found that van with the chemical weapons in it? Oh and would you rather Saddam be able to continue murdering Iraqis?

[Throbblefoot]

How can a person lead a country when he can't even make a decision and stick to it? At least Bush sticks to his guns. =P

Was I comparing him to anyone, BzK? Ludo didn't ask me why one might support Kerry, he asked why one might have a problem with Bush.

-Throbblefoot

[Mercy]

ROFL thanks BzK, because that just further concludes my story. The van with "chemical weapons" in it, was not a part of the damn terrorist attacks on the U.S. so you completely drew off from my topic. Yes Saddam is an evil person, and yes he needs to be drawn and quartered, but that does not mean that Bush had the right to attack his country. He should have poured more time into Afghanistan(however its spelled) That is where the terrorists were, that is where we needed to be. So yes we should have let Saddam continue what he was doing. Not that it was right, but we shouldnt jump to help other people, when we cant even help ourselves...

[BzK]

Yeah yeah whatever, let's let the tyrannical murdering psycho keep killing people, woohoo... he's as much of a terrorist as Osama... and he had more power

[420]

Alright, here is 420's official stance on politics.

Don't bother voting for the president, because your vote doesn't even count, only the electoral college matters in the presidential election and they made it very plain 4 years ago that the opinion of the citizens of the USA don't matter when it comes to electing the president.

Oh look the NY Times agrees with me!

To take this one step further, don't bother voting for anything because, and this should be pretty obvious to everyone, people only follow the laws that they want to follow.

Now, I don't know if this is a strictly American thing, but I have never met anyone that let the law dictate their actions if they really didn't feel like following that law.

So, lets review: When it comes to electing a president, you vote doesn't matter. When it comes to passing a law, your votes do count but the law you pass doesn't matter.

That about wraps up my views on politics. Oh yea, and Bush attacked Iraq because Saddam Hussein was mean to his daddy. Not to mention the fact that our country will kill anyone for oil.

-420

[Who The Man]

Bush, why Bush? First of all, whoever is gonna whine about how Bush is a horrible man, he's a better choice than Kerry, IF he does what he promises. But Al Gore should be president, I hate Bush, I hate Kerry.

[Mercy]

I dont like either candidates, but I would rather Kerry be on office before Bush is in again.

[Who The Man]

Just curios, how manyof you saw both the speeches of Kerry and BUsh at the Democratic/Republican national convention? What about Clinton and Swachnagger's speches?

[Ludo]

for people that don't like Bush.. please explain why.. unless you all just listen to the media..

You start out like this, and expect it not to turn into a flame war? That, to coin a phrase, is ludicrous.

I don't have enough time to list all my objections, so I'll limit myself to these two:
1. He encouraged government employees to twist the facts to support the war in Iraq instead of building consensus in the international community. The USA's reputation has been seriously damaged by this, which hurts us economically as well.
2. He's completely inarticulate. How can a person lead a country without an excellent command of its official language.

-Throbblefoot

Oh I suppose I should have had a more "sensative" opening.. the funny thing is most(not all) democrats immediatly flame a supporter of Bush who is trying to have a debate about politics..  I assumed a flame was unavoidable(*Editted for not getting permission to use persons name.), and I was expecting someone to just start ranting about how bad of a president bush is.. when in fact they use "TWISTED" facts to support their statements.. if you can call them statements..(or just mindless ramble).

Going to war with Iraq was not soley based on the fact that he thought they had weapons of mass destruction(in which he did have, and he tested on his own people).  The main purpose was because Sadam was a tyranical leader who killed his own people at his leisure...  Plus they have significant proof that Sadam was housing and supporting Osama.. mainly on the fact that the U.S. killed many of Al-Queda's top people.. (don't make me get names... its hard enough spelling it out).  I don't see how you can or would need to twist those facts.. because that is more than enough reasons to go to war..  By having consensus of the international community I suppose your saying we need approval of other countries to go to war?  In this situation when you have enough evidence to go to war I don't think it is necessary to have a second or third opinion.. especially when most countries could give a shit about the well being of our country..

I highly think that it is illogical that you would need to have excellent command of the English language to run a country..  He makes a few mistakes when makes his speeches and what not.. big deal... I think his ideals and thoughts concerning our country are a bit more important than his grammer/speech capabilities..

[Ludo]

You want to know my thoughts Ludo? Fine, here goes. Bush is a warmongering pig. He is an idiot who does not know the English language and is only in President because he knows people. I mean come the hell on, his campaign manager was the head of the recount, which was held in his brothers state. Cmon, that is so blatantly obvious, if you are a Bush supporter (which im guessing you are) you are an idiot, Im sorry, but thats just stupid. The whole Iraqi was is for nothing, only to continue his daddy's war. They were not holding or hiding any terrorists from 9/11 and! the only thing it did do, was kill innocent americans who wanted to fight for their country and further the deepness of Bush's pocket. Im not a political person, I dont follow it with a toothpick, but Im not so dullwitted that I cant see this. You have your own opinions yes, but I do not agree with them and as a matter of fact think that they are coming from an imbocil that is just trying to stir up things. Also, the Patriot Act is sooo rediculous that a kid who defaces a webpage, as a gag or anything, can go to jail for life, and now the updated Miranda Rights is even worse. So you do not have to be read your rights before being arrested. And to back that up, my mom is a District Attourney in NC, I know what I am talking about. So please let me hear your rebuttle.

Oh please (Editted for not getting permission to use persons name)...  A warmongering pig was Hitler... Bush actualy has intentions to help people and our country maybe if you haven't noticed?  Wow he doesn't know the English language.. yet he speaks English.. I am a bit confused there??  The recount could not be held in any other state.. so that had absolutly nothing to do with it... Oh and if it so "blatantly obvious" then why is he president?  Thats something to think about.  Oh and now your calling me an idiot?  Who is the one going on a rampage trashing Bush.. and Bush supporters?  Do you see me calling you guys idiots... or maybe I should just to stoop as low as you so maybe I can understand your mindless ramble...  The whole Iraqi war was to continue his Daddies war?  Uhm.. leme remind you here the purpose of Desert Storm, and the War we are in currently are completely different... Let's review... Quait was invaded by Iraq, and the U.S. stopped this.. There was no need to go into Iraq.. so the war ended there.. The war we are in currently there are a host of different reasons why we are in it... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from Desert Storm... so how could it be a continued war..  How could they hold and hide terrorist from 9/11 if they were on the planes flying into buildings..  But I suppose you mean terrorist in Al-Queda... well uhm sorry to burst your bubble here.. but they did kill Al-Queda top members in Iraq..  Those innocent Americans that died in battle voluntarily fought for our country and we will always honor them for what they did.. it would be idiotic to blame a president on our soldiers deaths.. when in fact people who join the military have a full understanding of the consequences of going to war... Lets not bring that up anymore.. because that is a very ignorant statement to blame Bush for their deaths.  By furthuring the deepness of Bush's pocket.. you mean acquiring money?  Wow... do I even need to argue with that.. we have absolutly gained no money from this war.. oh wait some people say we invaded for the oil... wtf?  Do you even know we acquire most and almost all of our oil from Canada and Venezuala?  Miranda Rights... by now our government thinks the citizens of the U.S. should fully understand the Miranda Rights.. and if you don't please go to school.  Ok I can understand that you do not agree with my opinions.. but calling me an Imbocil.. when your the one calling me names?  Presenting pointless points.. having no strong arguement?  Geez you must thrive off the Media considering the borders of your intelligence don't exceed past the marks of listening to the latest gossip and bullshit that is floating around...  What an ignorant thing to call me an imbocil that just wants to stir things up.. when in fact at the end of my first post I wanted to have a MATURE debate.. which I only think Throbblefoot can handle since the majority of you ramblers are closed-minded fools... kthxbai ignoring this pointless flame shit.


((now im warning you, stop using my name or i will ban you. I did not use yours in my posts...do not use mine again.))  Please read your quote...  You said my name.. and you refered directly to me with "you"..  Who else would you be directing your insults towards?? random readers?

[Ludo]

That about wraps up my views on politics. Oh yea, and Bush attacked Iraq because Saddam Hussein was mean to his daddy. Not to mention the fact that our country will kill anyone for oil.

Well then if we will kill anyone for oil... Canada is next on the list considering we acquire almost all of your oil from Canada...

Saddam was mean to bush's dad??  Uhm.. no not really.. he was "mean" if you wanna call it to Quait...  

[420]

By having consensus of the international community I suppose your saying we need approval of other countries to go to war?  In this situation when you have enough evidence to go to war I don't think it is necessary to have a second or third opinion.. especially when most countries could give a shit about the well being of our country..

Translation: The United States formed the United Nations in the first place, so... we are the boss of them!

All these hypocrites who think the U.S. should (for some reason) be above the U.N.

The U.N. was formed to prevent another World War II and Bush is doing his best to invalidate the U.N.s power.

Of course this all goes back to my above post, Americans do whatever the hell they want regardless of national law, international law or the ten commandments.

Terrorists invaded a country and killed lots of people because they didn't like that country interfering with their economic interests... sound familiar? Just who am I talking about in that statement?

-420

[Ludo]

ROFL thanks BzK, because that just further concludes my story. The van with "chemical weapons" in it, was not a part of the damn terrorist attacks on the U.S. so you completely drew off from my topic. Yes Saddam is an evil person, and yes he needs to be drawn and quartered, but that does not mean that Bush had the right to attack his country. He should have poured more time into Afghanistan(however its spelled) That is where the terrorists were, that is where we needed to be. So yes we should have let Saddam continue what he was doing. Not that it was right, but we shouldnt jump to help other people, when we cant even help ourselves...

We wiped out every possible terrorist threat in Afghanistan...

Please put yourself in a situation of a regular Iraqi citizen pre-war... you walk by a store.. and you accidently knock over a picture of Saddam.. all the sudden you are imprisoned and beaten and tortured for days... This was the fate of many Iraqi people(not knocking over the picture, but the immense torture).. I don't know about you.. but I would accepted any help that was offered...

[420]

Well then if we will kill anyone for oil... Canada is next on the list considering we acquire almost all of your oil from Canada...

Saddam was mean to bush's dad??  Uhm.. no not really.. he was "mean" if you wanna call it to Quait...

Canada isn't stupid enough to try and horde oil from the US first of all.

Secondly, Saddam had a HUGE tile mosaic of Geoge Bush Sr. face installed on the floor of the entryway to one of the biggest hotels in Iraq so that visitors could walk over his face as they entered. You may have to learn something of Arab culture to understand the significance of this. Saddam basically provoked Bush , thinking Bush wasn't crazy enough to go to war over insults. He was wrong.

-420

[Ludo]

By having consensus of the international community I suppose your saying we need approval of other countries to go to war?  In this situation when you have enough evidence to go to war I don't think it is necessary to have a second or third opinion.. especially when most countries could give a shit about the well being of our country..

Translation: The United States formed the United Nations in the first place, so... we are the boss of them!

All these hypocrites who think the U.S. should (for some reason) be above the U.N.

The U.N. was formed to prevent another World War II and Bush is doing his best to invalidate the U.N.s power.

Of course this all goes back to my above post, Americans do whatever the hell they want regardless of national law, international law or the ten commandments.

Terrorists invaded a country and killed lots of people because they didn't like that country interfering with their economic interests... sound familiar? Just who am I talking about in that statement?

-420

We have full support of many countries to be in this war... enough to out weigh the countries that oppose us..  Therefore we did not ignore national/international law... the ten commandments don't apply to all people/countries mainly because of different religions..

This is not a World War.. How is bush doing his best to invalidate the power of the UN.. when more than half of the countries in the UN are "for" bush going to war..?

Omg.. how did we interfere with the Al-Quaedas economic interests.. oh wait.. are you talking about Iraq... uh oh...  We didn't let them have the gold another country rightfully owned.. geez we deserve to have 3000+ people killed.. mk that makes sense..

[Ludo]

Well then if we will kill anyone for oil... Canada is next on the list considering we acquire almost all of your oil from Canada...

Saddam was mean to bush's dad??  Uhm.. no not really.. he was "mean" if you wanna call it to Quait...

Canada isn't stupid enough to try and horde oil from the US first of all.

Secondly, Saddam had a HUGE tile mosaic of Geoge Bush Sr. face installed on the floor of the entryway to one of the biggest hotels in Iraq so that visitors could walk over his face as they entered. You may have to learn something of Arab culture to understand the significance of this. Saddam basically provoked Bush , thinking Bush wasn't crazy enough to go to war over insults. He was wrong.

-420

Who wouldn't be pissed if a third party stopped you from invading another country and raiding all of their riches?  But how was he "mean"?  Oh wait the pictures of bush on the floor of hotels... please thats so childish.. that kind of shit happens in America.. regardless of who our president.. there will always be haters..

((*Main post deleted because hes to narrow minded to shut up*))

[Mercy]

Alright man, Im sick of you attempting to insult me, and for that last remark you just won yourself a 24 hour ban.

[EL CABAZONO]

I'll number my post so I can seem cool and such

1.  This will be civilized discussion from this post down, or there will be no discussion.

2.  Bush is a damned fool.
     A.  Iraq War
          1. excuses (chronological)
                 a. terrorism
                     a1. no terrorists
                 b. chemical/biological weapons
                     b1. no weapons
                 c.  "liberation" of iraqis
                     c1. Leads to savior from Saddam, but they will all be hated            and killed by the rest of the middle east due to their american influence
      B.  Economy
               1. The idiot pretends that he can affect it
               2.  'tax cut'
                   a. for the richest of the rich  (Republican only club, anyone?)
      C.  Would you want a president that can't speak his own language?


 "It's very important for folks to understand that when there's more trade, there's more commerce." -George W. Bush, at the Summit of the Americas in Quebec City, April 21, 2001

 "Neither in French nor in English nor in Mexican." -George W. Bush, declining to take reporters' questions during a photo op with Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien, April 21, 2001

 "This administration is doing everything we can to end the stalemate in an efficient way. We're making the right decisions to bring the solution to an end." -George W. Bush, April 10, 2001
(talk about redundancy)

 "I've coined new words, like, misunderstanding and Hispanically." -George W. Bush, speaking at the Radio & Television Correspondents dinner, March 29, 2001

 "I have said that the sanction regime is like Swiss cheese - that meant that they weren't very effective." -George W. Bush, during a White House press conference, Feb. 22, 2001

 "You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.'' -George W. Bush, Feb. 21, 2001

 "We're concerned about AIDS inside our White House - make no mistake about it." -George W. Bush, Feb. 7, 2001

 "The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants." -George W. Bush, Jan. 2001

 "I am mindful of the difference between the executive branch and the legislative branch. I assured all four of these leaders that I know the difference, and that difference is they pass the laws and I execute them." -George W. Bush, Dec. 20, 2000

 "Dick Cheney and I do not want this nation to be in a recession. We want anybody who can find work to be able to find work." -George W. Bush, 60 minutes II, CBS, December 5, 2000


"The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law." -George W. Bush, Nov. 2000
*EXTRA STUPID*

 "They misunderestimated me." -George W. Bush, Nov. 2000

 "If you don't stand for anything, you don't stand for anything!" -George W. Bush, Bellevue Community College, Nov. 2, 2000

 "One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations rise above that which is expected." -George W. Bush

 "Mr. Vice President, in all due respect, it is - I'm not sure 80 percent of the people get the death tax. I know this: 100 percent will get it if I'm the president." -George W. Bush, during the third presidential debate, Oct. 2000

 "Laura and I are proud to call John and Michelle Engler our friends. I know you're proud to call him governor. What a good man the Englers are." -George W. Bush, Nov. 2000

 "The fact that he relies on facts - says things that are not factual - are going to undermine his campaign." -George W. Bush on Al Gore

 "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." -George W. Bush


(quotes may not be real, just for comedy purposes)

[EL CABAZONO]

We have full support of many countries to be in this war... enough to out weigh the countries that oppose us..  Therefore we did not ignore national/international law... the ten commandments don't apply to all people/countries mainly because of different religions..

This is not a World War.. How is bush doing his best to invalidate the power of the UN.. when more than half of the countries in the UN are "for" bush going to war..?

Omg.. how did we interfere with the Al-Quaedas economic interests.. oh wait.. are you talking about Iraq... uh oh...  We didn't let them have the gold another country rightfully owned.. geez we deserve to have 3000+ people killed.. mk that makes sense..

in going to war with Iraq we disobeyed the United Nations.

Please pay attention to the world around you.


And yeah, it's not a world war because bush doesn't want to go and declare war on every other country he thinks are terrorists countries (amazingly all in africa and the middle east)    

[BzK]

in going to war with Iraq we disobeyed the United Nations.

So did Saddam... all 14 resolutions... OBVIOUSLY that wasn't working.

[EL CABAZONO]

in going to war with Iraq we disobeyed the United Nations.

So did Saddam... all 14 resolutions... OBVIOUSLY that wasn't working.

cliche time


Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Mercy]

lol, good one cabazono
 

[420]

Great posts Cab! Thank you.

Ludo, you are, what is commonly called a "warmonger", no wonder you like Bush so much!

It just occured to me that some people are missing a vital bit of information:

George W. Bush Jr. orchestrated the 9/11 attacks as a reelection strategy. That's why he was so upset that he wasn't allowed to use images of 9/11 for his reelection or run campaign commercials featuring the 9/11 attacks.

End of fucking story.

-420

[EL CABAZONO]

Let's not forget it was Bushydoo that wanted to make the first ammendment to the constitution that LIMITS rights.

[Throbblefoot]

We wiped out every possible terrorist threat in Afghanistan...

Honestly man, do you read the news?

This CNN article on recent terrorist activity in Afganistan is barely 2 months old.

When I read Ludo's comment that I quote above, I realized I had to bow out of the discussion. To quote the First Law of Debate: "Never argue with a fool. People might not know the difference."

-Throbblefoot

[Anarki]

I could sure use some help over here ====>Bush lovin' war mongers r' us (forum)<====
try convincing those lunatics not to support Bush.