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Neverwinter Nights => NwN General => GodSpire General => Topic started by: AngelsWings on September 27, 2004, 03:50:36 PM

Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: AngelsWings on September 27, 2004, 03:50:36 PM: Today Xen has build a new "group" and I have decided to follow him :D

members of this group wont have the following "cheap" things:
1) Wof
2) Hellball
3) hide (sneaker)
4) *edit: dev crit removed*
5) SoV
6) .........Im sure I forgot something :P *edit: I forgot harm :lol: *

we will prolly use the farm area for us legit duels

PS BzK would be a perfect member of this "group" ;)
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Anarki on September 27, 2004, 04:13:40 PM: :glare: Jesus, what's happening to this forum?
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Shildows_Nwn on September 27, 2004, 09:33:24 PM: Thats cool, but why post it?
I dont understand ( Then again i dont ever)
:huh:
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Anheg on September 27, 2004, 09:52:37 PM: I dont think people should separate urselves cause u see some things as cheap. Heck i do to. I dont harm, SoV, Dev, and very very rarely do i Hide and WoF. Yet, its an opinionated thing, so...*cant think of anything else to say*
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Ludo on September 28, 2004, 12:02:54 AM: Why avoid the problem, when you can find a way to counter or solve it?
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Bullet_Paine on September 28, 2004, 05:47:37 AM: sorry about the following question but xen or amra... u said a member of DMG wont use this cheap things.... recently xen said that to me... as I was going to join DMG....
PS: I doesnt use WOF since then...

why u wouldnt allowed hellball?
ehm whats about silence?
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: AngelsWings on September 28, 2004, 06:54:17 AM: Quote
sorry about the following question but xen or amra... u said a member of DMG wont use this cheap things.... recently xen said that to me... as I was going to join DMG....
PS: I doesnt use WOF since then...

why u wouldnt allowed hellball?
ehm whats about silence?
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the problem is that "uber" chars (cleric/monk/sd or cleric/rogue/sd) kill the fun
Xen told me an example, he said: now i will relog like DM and i will kill u spamming, u are unarmed against that and when u fight vs cheap builds its the same thing :closedeyes:
I dont want to say who has uber builds is a noob or a bad person, everyone can build one and I also have one...

why dont build a full ab char str based whit only TS? it wont be really strong like clerics or sd but it will be really funny
Give a look to BzK's builds, they rarely have one of the cheap things and he usually get fun when he plays on GS...

about the hellball, its cheap when u use it to knock down people and cast harm or attack them using 6 monks attacks

xen showed me how is possible kill someone using only 3 spells:
hellball, greater ruine, harm (when the enemy is kd) and if he is still alive u can hide...
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: AngelsWings on September 28, 2004, 07:06:56 AM: Quote
Thats cool, but why post it?
I dont understand ( Then again i dont ever)
:huh:
[snapback]7719[/snapback]

I post it because I wanted to see how many people agree
I dont expect nothing of special...

Quote
I dont think people should separate urselves cause u see some things as cheap. Heck i do to. I dont harm, SoV, Dev, and very very rarely do i Hide and WoF. Yet, its an opinionated thing, so...*cant think of anything else to say*
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lol it isnt a schism...we wont be the "no cheap user group" and u "the cheap user group" I only told u my opinion
dont worry I dont think to be more legit than u or something like that...
u all are good guys :lol:
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Bullet_Paine on September 28, 2004, 08:29:55 AM: behave...

i wont tell u that's impossible to hit a uber char with a non cheap char but its really hart and its not fun to play with a normal char (bard etc.) to an cleric with all the lame things and if its not a noob so ur chance to win is maybe = 0, so .....

but ur right cuz the chars of bzk are really funny so at the last time i made a new bard biuld and i think it will rockzzz....

so bullet wont be lame in the future;-P
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Raven on September 28, 2004, 08:36:16 AM: If you wish to form a separate group thats fine. All the things on that list are ok by themselves, its when people combine them that they become cheap. Wof is easily dispelled, as is SoV. Dev crit is not cheap, its damn expensive in terms of feats (power attack, cleave, great cleave, imp crit, overwhelming crit and 25+ str) and can be saved if you have high fortitude or 10 pale master lvls. Hiders only really profit against dex based chars, and only if they dont have uncanny dodge. Uncanny dodge is available to so many classes (SD, rogue, DD, barb etc) that many good builds will have it. Hellball is ok by itself as is harm (negative energy protection helps).

It seems that you should not stop duelling people who use any of these "cheap" things, but those that use them in special combos.

Oh, and a str fighter using ts could be considered cheap :P
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: bus driver on September 28, 2004, 08:36:26 AM: dont know how to say this but if it made sense it would be something like this so prepare yourselves...........there is no such thing as a cheap char.........and you just cant label somestuff cheap and other stuff not cheap its ether all cheap or not

-Edit [ i just thought of something as you know i said theres no such thing as a cheap char but could aslo look at it as every single char is cheap]
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: AngelsWings on September 28, 2004, 09:27:25 AM: Quote
Oh, and a str fighter using ts could be considered cheap :P
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yes maybe but try to build a pure str fighter whitout ts or clerics buff....every duel will be a 20 roller duel :(

why we dont try to ban wof just for a week? we did the same for spells slot....just a test
or maybe a wof DC on will :huh:
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Bullet_Paine on September 28, 2004, 09:42:51 AM: i think it would be better if u bann ts, wof and sov for a week so not only clerics have to suffer.

I think if u play a full or near a full cleric so u have to use wof vs. mages or cheap ts str fighters.... so u cant be kd...

mm wof with a dc on will or something would be nice... but maybe it should be a high one that u have to get for being immu to it...

is it a problem to make a script like that one
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: BzK on September 28, 2004, 09:47:42 AM: TS str fighters are ok IMO because they don't have very high AC, it's the archers that are annoying.

I don't know what Amra is talking about me having all builds without that stuff, I've made a few with them... just try not to because they're more fun without it =P
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Bullet_Paine on September 28, 2004, 10:40:55 AM: and its really hard to biuld them...

if u have something like that u can be proud...
i found its a real hard way to get something like that and u have to suffer....
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Mo on September 28, 2004, 11:32:44 AM: Ok here are my 2 cents on this matter. Anyone who knows me knows I do not hold much respect to any char that relies on hiding or Wof to duel. Reason is simple: This people are too stupid to create a good build so they rely on adding 1 level of SD to help them hit with their rediculous 40-50ab.

To all these people: Try getting better AB! and stop hiding like scared little children and fight like real people.

Same thing goes for Wof. Casted once it's no big deal unless your char doesn't have any spells to remove it, in which case you are basically dead. It's the people who spam it over and over that is uber annoying. These people also do not know how to make a good build which is why WoF is almost exclusively used by noobs.

The solution is to not duel chars that use these tactics. Just abort the duel..I do that all the time.

SoV is not cheap...in fact it's a pretty bad spell and a waste of time to cast.
Dev crit as Raven pointed out is the hardest feat to acquire and pretty easy to avoid if you're not as lazy as I am to add fort.
Hellball used by anything other than a mage is pretty cheesey, thats true, because it can not be avoided.

Anyway there's a lot of garabage dueling tactics out there. But who really cares, since we all know people who rely on them have no honor anyway B)
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Mo on September 28, 2004, 11:34:31 AM: Quote
Thats cool, but why post it?
I dont understand ( Then again i dont ever)
:huh:
[snapback]7719[/snapback]

Can someone please Ban him off the forums for a little while?

Someone who tries to convince the whole world that he is a complete idiot does not deserve to post here.
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Bullet_Paine on September 28, 2004, 12:10:27 PM: mo ur right u said its ok to buff wof one time in a duel if the other player can remove it....

so whats about a full cleric caster....
wof is one of the usefullest casts for him so he can win time......
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: AngelsWings on September 28, 2004, 12:24:00 PM: Quote
SoV is not cheap...in fact it's a pretty bad spell and a waste of time to cast.
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I add SoV in the list because everytime I roll 1 before to be able to dispell it :blink:

I agrree whit u and raven about the dev crit ;)
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Xen on September 28, 2004, 01:45:34 PM: People seem to have twisted what I have said, But no matter.

My thaughts on SoV would be; It isnt cheap, its very easy to dispell, And hardly bothers most players. But when it is cast multiple times is when it becomes a problem.

Adding a countermesure to take care of multiple SoV casting, possibly Tired out DC, for example:

You cast one SoV, You try casting another but your player is tired from the last one so consiquently suffers a spell fail of a given amount. Possibly increasing with each cast.

Also, Hell Ball; Acording to D&D Hell Ball (Evil Explosion) is a totaly uncontrollable spell, If any caster including High mages casts it, It will not descifer between the caster and the target, It simply explodes destroying anything in its radius including the caster.

So real it should KD and Damage the caster, But you could possibly tone down the damage recieved by the caster.

WoF; Word of faith was used by Clerics to ether destroy or Stun large groups of undead, A question could be asked "Why the hell would it blind me?" well the only explanation is that the spell cast by the Holy Cleric emits a holy light so bright it is blinding to normal Adventurers and Fatal to the undead.

My thaught on this would be to run a check for the level of the caster, Check for the levels of Cleric they have, Possibly a Wisdom check, Seeing as you must be Wise to utilise such power, And if you fail a simple check you as the caster have a chance at being blinded.

Horn;
I have no problem with Horn Spamming it is another thing.

Sneaking;
To me sneaking is just a cowards way out. It was designed for stealing/pick pocketing, But somwhere along the line ended up as a combat style. Sneaking is just crap in my book unless for RP use.

Devestating Criticle;
Well... I myself dont like being killed after one hit. Many people claim it as a fair tactic, But I see it as you start a mage duel and one of the players casts a FoD meening to simply damage the target but the target rolls a 1 and is consiquently downed. In most cases the players will deside on a reduel because of the unluck.

dev crit works similar, Most players in a melee will call a re duel on the acount of a lucky hit on the target, But each to there own.

I could possibly think of more, cant be bothered atm ;)

-Xen
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: 420 on September 28, 2004, 01:58:54 PM: OK, let me get this straight, a group dueling in the Farm without using all the spells that reduce me to 4 FPS? Where do I sign up?

Also consider these points:

- Storm of Vengence (no more auto-fail on 1 in NWN patch 1.64) - problem solved

- AoE spells cause lag (private dueling arenas will be up soon) - problem solved

- Hiders Suck! (make an anti-hider build and tourture them with it) - problem solved

- Hellball + Harm cheapness (added to 420's "do not duel list") - problem solved

- Dev Crit (hard feat to get, dev criters easy to hit, if they use TS, use a dispel weapon) - problem solved

I think most of the issues of cheap tactics will either be solved by the private arenas, the next patch or a simple change in tactics/build.

How to play a cheap build and still have fun!

Here are some rules I use for dueling with my level 38 Cleric (Zarathustra Zoroaster):

- No Epic Spells! (Im just that crazy)
- Only one Storm of Vengence at a time (if 1 doesn't do anything, 6 won't either)
- No Word of Faith unless my opponent Word of Faiths me first or Hides in Plain Sight
- NO HARM
- No domain spells while my opponent has a Spell Mantle on
- Only use Wall of Swords to bust through Spell Mantle (since Wall of Swords + Improved Evasion is bugged)

The real advantage of this is that I am the only almost-pure cleric that people are willing to duel over and over again.

-420
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Xen on September 28, 2004, 03:02:22 PM: As always I agree with you on pretty much every point.
And a tad of good new also, Bioware hurry the fark up!

-Xen
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Anheg on September 28, 2004, 03:14:11 PM: On the subject of Blade Barrier and SoV, can we dispell it in mid duel if lag is getting horrible? THere were like 4 SoV and Blade casters dueling at the same time. The lag was absolutely unbearable so i gusted it all before anything crashed, yet i broke a rule by interfereing in the middle of someone elses duel. What is the right thing to do?
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Throbblefoot on September 28, 2004, 04:08:46 PM: Quote
What is the right thing to do?
[snapback]7792[/snapback]

Retreat to Doriathh, or ask the casters to go elsewhere. Interfering in a duel is not acceptable.

About "anything crashing:" I'm not Talon (so I donlt know for sure), but I'd bet there was little or not strain on the server. That was end-user lag you were enjoying.

-Throbblefoot
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Talon on September 28, 2004, 10:02:59 PM: Quote
- Hellball + Harm cheapness (added to 420's "do not duel list") - problem solved

I continually hear this complaint
I honesty dont see any imbalance here, and I have NEVER used that combination myself. It is an easy way of doing up to 400HP damage, but it is equally easy to defend against.

Vs this strategy I either:

a) Cast hellball back at them
B) Cast Mantle
c) Have/Cast Spell Resistance
d) Cast dispel on the floor to remove knockdown from hellball and not be FF
e) STOP RELYING ON DEX FOR AC
f) Get Uncanny Dodge
g) Use concealment
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: 420 on September 28, 2004, 10:28:22 PM: Actually, usually the combo would be Hellball + WoF + Harm + Harm + any small amount of damage. Even my str fighter can't defened against it.

But that's beside the point, I say make a list because I don't think anything about GS needs to be changed to fix this combo, except:

If, according to the official 3E D&D rules, hellball is suppose to hurt the caster, than I think it should. People argue that it makes the spell useless but that isn't true since the spells does have a maximum radius that is smaller that the size of the GodSpire arena.

So just like an Ice Storm, you should have to aim your hellball in such a way that it doesn't hit you, or protect against it somehow before casting it.

This would prevent people from casting hellball on themselves to get an instant knockdown as their first move in a duel.

-420
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Talon on September 29, 2004, 05:15:26 AM: Quote
Actually, usually the combo would be Hellball + WoF + Harm + Harm + any small amount of damage. Even my str fighter can't defened against it.

But that's beside the point, I say make a list because I don't think anything about GS needs to be changed to fix this combo, except:

If, according to the official 3E D&D rules, hellball is suppose to hurt the caster, than I think it should. People argue that it makes the spell useless but that isn't true since the spells does have a maximum radius that is smaller that the size of the GodSpire arena.

So just like an Ice Storm, you should have to aim your hellball in such a way that it doesn't hit you, or protect against it somehow before casting it.

This would prevent people from casting hellball on themselves to get an instant knockdown as their first move in a duel.

-420
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Actually - hellball is broken - it should only knock you down if you take more than 50hp damage. Bioware kinda fucked that up :P.
It currently hurts the caster on GS.
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: -=Zen=- on September 29, 2004, 02:30:20 PM: Oh God yes, Make it even more legit than it already is =P

Lets all just use level 3s with padded armor +1 and a +1 short sword!
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: -=Zen=- on September 29, 2004, 02:34:39 PM: Quote
he usually get fun when he plays on GS...

[snapback]7754[/snapback]

Drugs can do wonders with BZK =P
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: T]-[eSh0rTy on September 29, 2004, 10:28:26 PM: i really wouldnt see the point in gettin rid of that mainly because if you did get rid of ts wof etc. you pretty much would be just like any 20 ac server just with no risistace and 9 ac items
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Tea-cup on September 30, 2004, 05:14:59 PM: This whole topic is a joke, if you take out what you call 'lame/cheap', it will be replaced by other things that are 'lame/cheap' until you have nothing left. Almost evrything imageable that actualy can kill a other pc is 'lame/cheap'. For example, aa whit taunt and bardsong, or cleric/monk/sd, horn + dev crit, spamming sov ( and not only cleric do that, druids are spellspammers ), bladebarier ( it has no refex save for no damage if you have improved evasion, can be spammed too ) , monk sr ( bugged ), hellball, shades, epicdoge, spamming horn, bard song + digre + high lvl bard, silence, hips, spellslot mage vs mage lamers, low lvl mages whit insane amounts of hp from rdd or so, taunting mage vs mage,... i can keep going, maybe a harperscout is a class that can't be used in a lame way. Not even talking about the differnet opinions about what is lame/cheap and what is not ...

No wof, no hips, maybe even not ts and so, what the hell is the difference between gs and any other 20 ac resist or uber server???? There you have 1 perfect build type whit most ab/ac/hp/dam and all make that build(copy-time), you're all hoping you'll be the 'one' whit that perfect build and never lose? All will have it will all be dump luckfights and no building or idea's at all..... (how about all being dm and killing/freezing each other whit the sent rune? It's a bit the same and really looks real fun, really, ..., ..., bah) GS is balanced pvp, that also means you have strong and weak points, and i'm terrible sorry if it's that high ab aa, or horn/deva freak or hips user or whatever that picks on a weak point in you're flawed build, that is required to talk about balanced pvp ....

If you want a fair fight, duel someone who can give you it. Why it always has the be forced to behave? It's as sad as those rules that need to be writen down somewhere because those randomers/spammer/idiots/whatever can't behave.

I'm still wondering what I'm doing on a pvp server ... I wish gs was rpg or had somthing else than pvp.

Sorry I'm such a bitch last days but my mood is below zero, sorry :(
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Blood Angel on September 30, 2004, 05:27:13 PM: hey since hiding is considered lame then why not just make true seeing work as it says in the description again? invis and hiding spotted instantly, fixes one prob. If too much to take then lets say, true seeing can only be cast as a spell, then in some cases the hiders have it their way and in other cases they're done for.

Hellball, seriously, when I use it when making a server it knocks me down, it's gotta be a server script, could just be removed. (guess why I didn't use hellball when I came back to gs during hotu)

If you lose to a spammer, SoV Blades horn, whatever.... tell them they're spamming and then play again and kick their ass, it's legal but lame so there's no way of stopping them.
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: 420 on September 30, 2004, 07:41:35 PM: Wow, some people seem to be hypersensitive to a topic that doesn't exist.

This topic is not about changing rules in GS or what is considered cheap, so there is no need to get all defensive.

This topic is about a group of people who can get together and duel with certain restrictions above and beyond standard GS rules. It is just like any other "guild", a group of like minded people hanging out and still able to be in other clans.

If you had bothered to read the entire thread you would see that most of the issues with "cheap" tactics will be solved by a patch or by dueling in a different area.

If you want to start a new topic about why your opinion differs from the group that this thread was created to form, then I suggest you do that. Don't start flaming people that are trying to put together a fun group project. If you don't aggree, you don't have to participate.

I, for one, would like to try it out, so if anyone wants to duel me in The Farm, just ask!

-420
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Xen on October 01, 2004, 06:25:51 AM: Im glad you get it dude, LoL.
I myself have no idea were this topic was goin..

Indeed it was a lil group, Basicly, We decided to start a fighting style. You dont have to obay all the time, Go back to the way you were at any time. We just decided to fight without any dissabling spells, buffs only, And offensive spells (Damage only) Dispell is also fine.

Simply an idea to make duels more interesting, Nothing more, I wasnt suggesting changing the rules of GS that would be stupid.

-Xen
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Meclar on October 01, 2004, 12:46:23 PM: Lack of variety in builds
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Throbblefoot on October 01, 2004, 01:57:17 PM: Quote
Lack of variety in builds
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Lack of content in posts.....

-Throbblefoot
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Shildows_Nwn on October 02, 2004, 03:56:14 AM: Bioware made this game for the things to be used, not banned.
Cheap chars are there to be beaten by skill chars.
Skilled chars are there to be beaten by cheap chars.
It easy to kill cheap ones, you just gotta find a way.
and aborting dules and banning spells means your just running away from the problem, and not just acceping it.
If there were no cheap characters, where do n00bs go to find a way to make a good char?. Cheap feats and spells are to make newbie chars find a way around them and have even better ways of killing the opponent.

Running away is not the answer to your unbeatable problems. :angry2:

If you dont know what i mean by unbeatable, i mean like if you have a deformity, there is no way around it, and if would make it worse just trying to tackle it, just fess up and accept it. ( not saying that all of you have deformitys) <_<
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: 420 on October 04, 2004, 01:17:26 PM: Quote
Cheap chars are there to be beaten by skill chars.
Skilled chars are there to be beaten by cheap chars.
[snapback]8029[/snapback]

Will someone PLEASE ban this ass-hole from posting for awhile? Not only is he posting his opinions about "cheap" tactics to the wrong topic, but as you can see in the above quote, he isn't actually saying anything. Talk about lack of content.

-420
Title: Xen's Experiment....
Post by: Xen on October 04, 2004, 01:58:00 PM: If nwn wasnt so full of fuck ups it wouldent need banned spells, nwn was not created for pvp and as a result we have spells and properties that collied with any proper pvp rule set that could be set.

99.9% of pvp servers ban Imunitys... What is the difference? Resists a compleatly RP they were never or will never be for pvp.

They were created to add a better RP value to the game, for example;

The only way to survive the Fire dragons breath is buy wearing a [span style=\'color:yellow\']Fire resistant[/span] set of scale mail.

But you cannot use your fire brand because it is [span style=\'color:yellow\'] imune to fire[/span], so your Ice blade is the best choice.

Okay, possibly a poor example. But I think you see my point..
And yes, I have banned Sildows once allready, 420 ask throbble if I am not around, I accept her judment and yours.

Anyway im to tired to debate the ill placed discussion on resists and imunitys and spell casting items in a topic were it was not intended,
And before you say it, Spell casting items were created also to bring better role play by offering enchanted items with "Special powers" to make the game more colourfull and interesting, not for pvp yet again.

-Xen