Other > Random Ranting
South Park vs. Revolution Muslim
Meclar:
--- Quote ---Absolutely every action, no matter how selfless the act, is in some way selfish.
--- End quote ---
Altruism does exist. You and your freakin contradictory statements. So an entirely ("no matter how selfless") selfless act is to some degree selfish?
--- Quote ---I would argue that the people who are offended by the opinions and statements of perfect strangers are the ones who are small minded. As are those people that try to force their religion on others through threats and violence.
--- End quote ---
You aren't differentiating people who are offended and by people who are offended and then threaten. Being offended is wrong but the act of offending someone is generally acceptable?
--- Quote ---Freedom of speech can be exercised any way desired, otherwise it wouldn't really be freedom, would it?
--- End quote ---
There are elements of freedom and free will but neither is absolute. So you agree that it can be exercised frivolously? If so do you think South Park does so?
--- Quote ---No good came of putting Mohammad in a freaking bear costume ffs.
--- End quote ---
Other people are having the same conversation we are and some of those people may never have done that before. I agree Mo that making fun of people whether it be everyone or a single group is not healthy unless of course they're your friends.
--- Quote ---Yes, and it is against the law.
--- End quote ---
I don't think a society should leave it to their laws to be the extent of their morals, which I think we can agree on. And if a right being exercised frivolously, which is unlawful to you, it's no longer a right being exercised but an unlawful act and I think we can agree that, depending on the act, it may or may not be immoral.
--- Quote ---Maybe if everyone started drawing pictures of Muhammad then the Muslims would get over themselves and stop killing people over nothing.
--- End quote ---
The building of minarets have been banned and their dress code is in question.
420:
--- Quote from: Mo on May 03, 2010, 01:22:25 PM ---Ok everyone's wrong. So here comes a cliche for you. Take the high road. Otherwise you fail.
--- End quote ---
And therein lies the catch, you can't dictate whether someone chooses to take the high road or not. That's exactly what makes our freedoms so important.
If we all acted the same way we wouldn't be unique individuals, we'd just be a bunch of drones. Dissent is often a necessary tool to advance society.
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 04:47:17 PM ---Altruism does exist. You and your freakin contradictory statements. So an entirely ("no matter how selfless") selfless act is to some degree selfish?
--- End quote ---
Correct, every "altruistic" act is, at the most basic level, a direct result of a selfish reaction. Your brain regulates your behavior using a a chemical neurotransmitter called dopamine. We are addicted to this stuff. It's what makes us feel good after we've eaten, it's what rewards us when we solve a puzzle and it's what makes us feel good about ourselves when our actions are reaffirmed by someone we hold in esteem.
True altruism only exists as a concept.
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 04:47:17 PM ---You aren't differentiating people who are offended and by people who are offended and then threaten. Being offended is wrong but the act of offending someone is generally acceptable?
--- End quote ---
Heh, well, I know it sounds like I'm saying being offended is wrong. And in a way, that is how I feel because I think people are generally gormless fucktards who need to grow a pair. However, I will concede that people have a right to be offended as that is their freedom of religion and expression. But a person's freedom ends where it begins to restrict other's freedoms.
People can have whatever opinions they want and feel offended if they want to, that is their right. However, they can't dictate the opinions of others, that's hypocrisy.
Also, if offending someone wasn't generally acceptable, how do you explain the popularity of stand up comedians?
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 04:47:17 PM ---There are elements of freedom and free will but neither is absolute. So you agree that it can be exercised frivolously? If so do you think South Park does so?
Other people are having the same conversation we are and some of those people may never have done that before. I agree Mo that making fun of people whether it be everyone or a single group is not healthy unless of course they're your friends.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Main Entry: friv?o?lous
Pronunciation: \ˈfri-və-ləs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin frivolus
Date: 15th century
1 a : of little weight or importance b : having no sound basis (as in fact or law) <a frivolous lawsuit>
2 a : lacking in seriousness b : marked by unbecoming levity
--- End quote ---
I think South Park is frivolous by the definitions 2a and 2b but not by 1a or 1b.
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 04:47:17 PM ---I don't think a society should leave it to their laws to be the extent of their morals, which I think we can agree on. And if a right being exercised frivolously, which is unlawful to you, it's no longer a right being exercised but an unlawful act and I think we can agree that, depending on the act, it may or may not be immoral.
--- End quote ---
But the laws are the physical manifestation of the morals that we humans can agree on. It may not be the full extent but it's a pretty damn good guideline. The only frivolous act that could possibly be considered unlawful is definition 1b, which could also cover instances of inciting panic or riots.
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 04:47:17 PM ---
--- Quote ---Maybe if everyone started drawing pictures of Muhammad then the Muslims would get over themselves and stop killing people over nothing.
--- End quote ---
The building of minarets have been banned and their dress code is in question.
--- End quote ---
I fail to see the connections between these two statements.
-420
Soul Sojourner:
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 04:47:17 PM ---Altruism does exist. You and your freakin contradictory statements. So an entirely ("no matter how selfless") selfless act is to some degree selfish?
--- End quote ---
My answer to that question would be, absolutely, yes. I read on and 420 already gave an explanation, although not the same as I had planned to give, it covers my point anyway.
--- Quote ---You aren't differentiating people who are offended and by people who are offended and then threaten. Being offended is wrong but the act of offending someone is generally acceptable?
--- End quote ---
I generally agree with 420's outlook on people needing to "grow a pair," but I don't believe that offending someone being "generally acceptable" or not really matters. It was generally acceptable to behead people in ancient Greece. It was also generally acceptable to pit slaves against eachother in an Arena for entertainment in Rome. How many people considered these acts to be wrong? They considered these things sport and entertainment and executions were often a public event. Time has proven several times over that the majority opinion isn't a good measure of what's right or wrong.
--- Quote ---There are elements of freedom and free will but neither is absolute. So you agree that it can be exercised frivolously? If so do you think South Park does so?
--- End quote ---
Yes I do. It may not always be legal, but laws change over time, so it could be completely different in the future and has been in the past. As for your second question, 420 summed it up pretty well.
Meclar:
If a religions practices are being banned or restricted or disrespected they feel threatened and as a result they sometimes isolate themselves or lash out with violence and that puts their motives at more than "nothing".
There's a difference between self interest and selfishness. Brushing your teeth or doings out of concerns for your health are self interest and physiological reactions are not even conscious decisions. You have to choose to do something that puts people out for your advancement.
--- Quote ---True altruism only exists as a concept.
--- End quote ---
I was pointing out that in the theoretical situation that he gives where you have an absolute selfless act it would be contradictory to have selfishness included in that act. I think altruism occurs in degrees but there may not be absolute or true altruism. So I think we agree just went in a circle to get there.
I think in our culture it is generally acceptable to offend but only for entertainment purposes. Otherwise Americans find groups like the Westboro Baptist Church generally unacceptable. Ever see 'Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World'? I don't think the main character finds any. The popularity of stand up comedians is isolated to developed and typically Christian dominant western countries.
420:
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 09:11:04 PM ---If a religions practices are being banned or restricted or disrespected they feel threatened and as a result they sometimes isolate themselves or lash out with violence and that puts their motives at more than "nothing".
--- End quote ---
Alright, I'll agree with that. I sometimes forget that people's feelings are the only real thing that they experience in this world.
How about: "Maybe if everyone started drawing pictures of Muhammad then the Muslims would get over themselves and stop killing people over graven images."
--- Quote from: Meclar on May 03, 2010, 09:11:04 PM ---I think in our culture it is generally acceptable to offend but only for entertainment purposes. Otherwise Americans find groups like the Westboro Baptist Church generally unacceptable. Ever see 'Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World'? I don't think the main character finds any. The popularity of stand up comedians is isolated to developed and typically Christian dominant western countries.
--- End quote ---
Very interesting and somewhat worrying. The tradition of comedy is based on the ability of a critic (the fool) to publicly mock the policies of the ruling elite without fear of reprisal. I would expect that cultures which lacked that aspect would stagnate.
-420
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